Poll: Holy Symbols, what about the blackguards?

Hi folks,

As the design and implementation of the Holy Symbols that I've been promising nears completion,
I have a question for everyone out there (Bueller?, Bueller? )

Right now both Paladin and Cleric levels count towards the advancement stages of the symbols.
Upon making a new character, you will receive your first symbol at level 1, then replacements
every five levels thereafter, up to a total of 30.

The question is: Should Blackguard levels count towards the advancement stages?
Discussion is highly encouraged here.

My personal, initial reaction, has been no. Part of that stems from the fact that there is
no necessity for the Blackguard to have taken any other divine prerequisites (since you
can make a fighter/rogue or mage/rogue type blackguard). The second issue I have,
is that Blackguards really don't have any divine spells/powers in the first place.

Once again discussion is highly encouraged, I'm open to changing this if that's
what everybody here thinks is appropriate, or if one person can give me the
most persuasive argument I've ever read

i'm a wizard really. don't play other classes much. i have zero knowledge of blackgaurd and little cleric experience.

maybe blackgaurd only gets holy symbol if has levels in cleric. but then why? he'd have a clerical symbol.
i'm gonna say um, no.

afterthought: cleric holy symbol may have extra powers if blackgaurd class detected?
like an item set, but a class set... shrugs.

my suggestion , if any...would be not to have the blackguard be able to take ANY deities but maybe OnLeveUp if > then say 5 levels in BG give them a demonic symbol that can maybe command demons...or somesuch and it would level up on each 5 levels of BG.
just my 2 cents.

Gonna be a long post here... a bit about Paladins and about Blackguards.

As Borojb and I have discussed while tromping through AF, we differ a bit on our Blackguard beliefs. I agree with his arguments to a point, but at the same time, you can make a Paladin / Rogue...an Inquisitor who sneaks around gathering evidence against you for his "righteous" deity, or even a Paladin / PDK (but why would you want to) who strikes fear into the heart of his enemies (doesn't sound too "holy" to me and not very sporting either,) a Paladin / Sorcerer, a Paladin / Bard, etc.

If the reason not to give a Blackguard a Holy Symbol is based on the fact she doesn't need to take a divine class or isn't granted divine spells / powers, it should be the same for Paladins... they aren't "required" to take a divine class prior to becoming a Paladin.

I pulled some info from the NWNWiki on Paladins...

Paladins take their adventures seriously, and even a mundane mission is, in the heart of the paladin, a personal test - an opportunity to demonstrate bravery, to learn tactics, and to do good in the world. Divine power protects these warriors of virtue, warding off harm, protecting them from disease, healing them and their allies, and guarding against fear. Divine power also guides their sword arms, making them among the most effective warriors against undead and evil outsiders. Many of the paladin's special abilities also benefit from a high Charisma score.

and a bit more later on...

Standing at the forefront of the battle against chaos and evil in the world, the epic paladin shines as a beacon of hope to all who fight the good fight.

and from The Forgotten Realms Wiki... (ref. 4th edition I believe though, so not all is relevant to the argument, but you get the idea...)

A paladin is a holy crusader, crusading in the name of his or her deity, and a divine spellcaster. Though paladins are typically considered lawful good, evil paladins and those of non-lawful alignments can exist, though all paladins must be of the exact alignment of their patron deity.[1] All paladins are expected to be a paragon of their alignment and a model for others of their faith.

Perhaps the best known paladin of Toril was Gareth Dragonsbane, who later went on to become the king of Damara, as well as the renowned Piergeiron Paladinson, an Open Lord of Waterdeep. Scyllua Darkhope and Aribeth de Tylmarande are infamous examples of fallen paladins, both formerly of Tyr, with Scyllua becoming a paladin of Bane instead.


I pulled a bit from the NWNWiki on Blackguards...

A blackguard epitomizes evil. They are nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. Many refer to blackguards as anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness.

and later in the section...

The epic blackguard is a twisted reflection of the epic paladin, the commander of legions of undead, the unholy lieutenant of evil gods, and a foul source of fear and mortal danger.

and from The Forgotten Realms Wiki...

Blackguard, also referred to by some as the antipaladin, is a specialized prestige class on Faerûn that epitomizes pure evil. Nothing short of a mortal fiend, they are quintessential black knights, carrying a reputation of the foulest sort. Consorting with demons and devils while serving dark deities, blackguards are hated and feared by all. They usually lead legions of undead, evil outsiders or other monsters to conquer under their own guide. Occasionally guards might end up as wandering purveyors of chaotic destruction, attacking with honorless guile or flat out smiting the forces of good that stand in their way.[1]

Fighters, ex-paladins, rangers, monks, druids and barbarians make for forceful combat-oriented blackguards, while rogues and bards are more likely to stress the subtle aspects of their abilities and spells. Sorcerers, wizards and clerics who become blackguards favor dealing with fiends especially.[1]


So... I believe that in order to become a Blackguard, no matter what your core class is, you have to at some point connect with a deity who grants you the powers of evil and makes you it's Champion. These powers are above and beyond the normal powers you get by murder, assassination, and out right destruction of good and law for the pure joy of it.

Both a Paladin and a Blackguard (imo) feel a calling that drives them to become something more than the standard worshiper of a specific deity. When you choose to become a Champion of your chosen deity, you give up everything else in your life and fully devote, commit, and dedicate yourself to The Cause.

(From The Forgotten Realm Wiki)

Dogma of Torm: (LG) Salvation may be found through service. Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain law and order. Obey your masters with alert judgment and anticipation. Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals. Bring painful, quick death to traitors. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn.[8]

Dogma of Cyric: (CE) Death to all who oppose Cyric. Bow down before his supreme power, and yield to him the blood of those that do not believe in his supremacy. Fear and obey those in authority, but slay those that are weak, of good persuasion, or false prophets. Battle against clergy of other faiths, for they are false prophets and forces who oppose the One True Way. Bring death to those that oppose Cyric's church or make peace, order, and laws, for only Cyric is the true authority and all other authority must be subverted. Break not into open rebellion, for marching armies move the false deities into action. Fell one foe at a time and keep all folk afraid, uneasy, and in constant strife. Any method or means is justified if it brings about the desired end.[3]

So that's a yes?

lol..

That's a big YES, youbetcha.

Although, I do think that a Paladin or Blackguard Holy Symbol may not be or should not be as powerful as a cleric's symbol would be. More of a tool to assist in their goal

I tend to think of clerics as more generalized preachers who spread the word, make the converts and teach about the deity and what it offers.
I tend to believe the Paladin and Blackguard are the specialists / enforcers.
You go to the church to solve the problem first and if the clerics can't handle it they call in the specialists to take care of the problem. Any converts they make would probably be sent to the church for training first rather than jump right into becoming a Pal / BG. Have to make sure they are for real, right?

I would say yes as well. NWN seriously gimped BGs (and assassins for that matter) when it came to their spellbooks by giving them a spell-like feat in lieu of actual spellbooks. The NWN BGs may not be "spell casters" as per paladins, but in PnP they are. And while they don't have any divine prerequisite feats, they DO gain the undead turn/rebuke ability, as well as the ability to summon a fiendish minion.

Alright,

Just based on length of argument (which I still haven't finished reading
by the way ) I have decided to capitulate, and Blackguard levels
will be included in determining the divine level for Holy Symbols.

Thanks for the input guys, its hard to argue with SHJ's citations, and Manny
brought up a very important point that NWN doesn't treat things the
same as PnP, for ease of implementation, which should not supercede
original intent (or something ).

I think SHJ's new forum avatar makes his position quite clearly too

Well.. a long time ago in AF history I was accused of having a Paladin place a hit on someone. WRONGLY accused mind you (at the time.)

Since that time he was tempted to play a game of cards. Turns out it was a Deck of Hazards... alas, Cyric is more to his liking now.

Ah yes, i remember reading about that. There was a troublesome boggle of halfling involved, wasn't there?

Youbetcha there was...